Calling on conservative women viners, your opinion is requested...

I agree lost.

Every woman needs to make the abortion decision on their own, and with ALL the information available. I believe (hopefully not naively) the intent of the trans-vaginal ultrasound is to provide more information, especially with respect to late-term abortions, which I believe should have restrictions. Just as women should have access to the procedure, they should have access to information - not required, just available. And I'm willing to put my tax dollars towards providing all the information necessary for a woman to make an informed decision.

I would prefer the government stay out of business decisions, including what services an insurance company covers or doesn't cover. The marketplace (you and me) should decide with our pocketbooks what good business decisions are - not government.

However, the government (and society in general) should find a way to meet the needs not met in the marketplace for those that have no options - like a woman who can't afford to switch insurance plans, or with no access to a plan that covers the benefits she needs, including contraception. Contraception is a need, not a luxury.

This makes sense to me as a fiscally conservative/socially moderate woman.

On a separate but related note, and not meant to derail - I really dislike labels - hopefull, there are very few of us who fit all the way into one box or another.

Interesting perspective :)

I agree with all of you except on #2. You were not offensive by any means either! Well written and thought out... you offer insight to what I personally fear that women will face in the future. I have a daughter as well, and my wish is that she would never have an abortion, but if she needed one, that she could find a safe and legal place to go.

Contraception does keep down std's etc... and yes, I fear the taxpayer burden on raising kids would be devastating.

So glad you are my friend here on the vine!

E

PS... Pat... I love seeing you on the vine!! Great article and great perspectives!

I just think that sometimes women make a decision to have an abortion basing it on a form of birth control, and an optional one should not be treated as such. I dont think they see it as a life until they see that its there. I am not against it by any means, but I do think there needs to absolute surety that it is the right choice for the mother.

I am so glad you are my friend too! I love what you have to say! Always the teacher, hehe~

And, yes, great article!

I have talked to a friend of mine who said she had an abortion because it was available, so I understand where you are coming from.

The teacher in me says "Educate those women about birth control!"

*sigh* we can only hope right? (about the education part!)

the lovely "E" is right, education is power, and power is the part of birth control, and the practice of the same, that teaches responsibility. Longing loins are great, but it works for both sides, to take the time, and the respect of each other, that mistakes are not made.

E- I have a small fear that its going to take tons of education, and possibly some actual consequences for some women to take birth control seriously. I had a friend (not anymore) that has 4 kids like me. She has all boys, and none of them have the same father (except the second one that would have made 5, he died when he was 7 months of SIDS. He shares the same dad as the first). She is not working, she doesnt pay rent, pay for groceries, medical, and the child support check she gets goes for her car payment and clothes for herself, as her parents pay for everything she doesnt. She also treats her kids like crap, they are mean and hateful, and she pushes them off on her parents and sister constantly because "she cant deal". The first one was supposedly an "oops" the condom broke. The second one was rape with her long term boyfriend (the one that died). The third was a one night stand that was supposedly an "oops" the condom broke. The fourth was "I didnt know antibiotics made birth control useless". The last one was "I cant get pregnant. I dont think he can have kids." I wont talk about the abortion she had, which would have made 6. That was another "oops". The biggest problem I have with all of the "oops" was that I only had one "oops" baby, and that was not quite an "oops", more like a "I dont care if I get pregnant, do you?". That was my last kid, and it pretty much was like a "HMM. I think I want a baby, so why stop it?" Dad agrees to this day, BTW, lol. I do believe that some "oops" happen, but not like 6 outta 6 times. Education is key, but we also need to set aside some areas of "consequences" for women who either repeatedly use abortion as birth control, and women who use DFS to care for their out of wedlock children that they never had any intention of financially supporting themselves, or women who make tons of kids to avoid the inevitable "J" word. I feel that you should have mandatory birth control for the entire time you are on any public assistance, as well. If you cant feed who you already have, why be able to make more?

My mom made an interesting statement earlier. It goes something like this "You and your brothers generations (I was born in 83, he in 77) are the lost ones. You guys had it so bad because of many things. The first real quantities of single parents came from then. Everyone was still recovering from the separation of America, the drugs, and Vietnam. Everyone stopped caring about the future, only lived for today. You were all raised around people who were voids. Everyone you knew came from some sort of troubled past due to the constant turmoil of the past before you were born. And you had no real tragedy, war, or economic issues until 2001 to get a grasp on what fear and turmoil are. You felt too safe where you should have felt fear, and you had too much fear where you should have felt safe. You also were raised to believe that no matter what was going on, someone would be able to make it better. That made many believe that they were able to do whatever, and someone else would pick up the slack." It kind of makes sense to me. She also said that our kids are the ones who have the hope and insperation to make great strides. And I also believe that. They are in a state of mind to have seen the direct result of some bad things, so they can and do have the power to change things for the better.

Geez. I did it again, lol.

Sorry, when you are ending a pregnancy (i.e. Life), you should be sure that they are following the law. Sorry, I had to have one for it, and it didnt bother me. It was something that was necessary in order to follow the protocol to get the desired outcome. I also had to have one being pregnant with 2 out of 4 daughters to make sure all was ok, as they were both very ugly and scary pregnancies.

Yes. Ever heard of Forced Sterilization for sex offenders? Its a parole requirement for certain inmates in certain states. Do it, or dont get out. Look it up.

Make that medically unnecessary. Sorry for any confuaion.

Well, that can also be considered an opinion, wouldnt it? Why give someone a complete physical for a broken toe? Double check? Just to make sure everything else is on the up and up? What if there was something wrong with the placenta, or something? That could pose a health risk to the mother. What if the baby was 4 days past "viability stage", and the mother didnt know it? Sorry, there are many more reasons to it rather than to "invade the womans privacy", I'm sure. I dont know the reasons in their entirety due to the fact that I am not a doctor. Im am positive it is not because of anything but precaution.

You don't need to apologize, but let's be clear about something. Trans-vaginal ultrasounds are not law at this time, so I don't understand your point about that. I don't know of anyplace where it is the law.

If it's not too personal a question, where you ever told why it was necessary for you to have one? I understand about your other pregnancies, but why would you need one for an abortion?

What I am asking you is why you seem to think that a medically unnecessary and invasive procedure should be law. What purpose do you believe that it serves?

Insofar as chemical castration of sex offenders, would you then equate a woman seeking an abortion with a serial child molester?

I'm not trying to be provocative here, (well, maybe a little) but I can see the reason for chemical castration. I don't see anything so compelling in the desire to end a pregnancy.

Why give someone a complete physical for a broken toe?

I don't believe that to be the case. They set the toe, put on a splint and say goodbye.

Im am saying there are certainly reasons for it. Did you know that if a placenta is not above the baby, she could hemorrhage? I am positive there are women who dont get an ultrasound before they get to that clinic. How could the doc who is basically going in to remove things (you do get dilated and basically go into labor first) via birth to an extent go ahead and perform something like this without knowing its not going to cause the mothers death?

Yes, there were reasons for it. It cost more to do it the later the date, and they had to have an very accurate date of conception. They narrowed it down to the very day that conception took place. They also had medical reasons. It wasnt law then, but they did it to be very clear what was going on. I was also allowed to know the sex if I wanted, I didnt.

There are states that have passed the law.

No, I do not equate a mother seeking an abortion with a sex offender, but both have a desired outcome that must have pre-requisites completed before it is carried out.

I just think that it being a law isnt a bad thing. I feel that people who are getting an abortion should know exactly what is going on, that all medical professionals are taken care of (they would be sued in a minute if they didnt give an ultrasound, and something happened) legally, and that there is a surety of safety for the mother. I think the ultrasound takes care of all of that, not to mention that they surety of the baby being under viability stage.

I have broken more bones than anyone I know, and everytime I go to the ER they make sure my stats are good, that other areas are not injured, and that I am able to handle any medications they put me on. Also known as a physical. And they dont set toes, or even make a splint. They tape it. Bad comparison, Ill admit, but the thought is still there. If you go to the doctor for what is very obviously the flu, they still do blood work and a history to make sure everything is on the up and up. And to prevent them from having a legal issue, Im sure.

Thanks for the explanation wowed.

While it may make sense for some women who have a history with high risk pregnancies, or in the case of a late term abortion where the date of conception is critical, a transvaginal ultrasound with the mothers consent makes sense.

I respect your opinion, and if you want to have such a procedure, you should be allowed to have it.

What bothers me is making it a legally required, forcing every woman to undergo what is a medically unnecessary procedure.

It tells a woman; "We have control over your body, not you. And if you want to have an abortion, we are going to excercise that control and make it as humiliating for you as we possibly can because our beliefs are more important than yours."

But it is medically necessary to do an ultrasound before they do an abortion. Thats the point. I dont feel that it is infringing on anything, as it is an elected procedure, and there must be a protocol to follow, as there is in anything. Im saying that they didnt give me a choice at the clinic, where it wasnt a law, to have that specific procedure. It wasn't a big deal as I understood that it was necessary protocol for many different reasons. It was part of the appointment, and they explained all of this to me before I went in. My choice was to do the ultrasound, or leave, I guess. But it was something that they HAD to do before I had it done. I dont feel they infringed on my rights, or said "We have control over your body". It was more "We are going to do this in order to make sure its all on the up and up." I would think that this is more "make sure that mom isnt lying about the due date to get it done" than "Just so she has to feel like shes being violated". This is a real issue. I think it is a good law, and judging the women I know who have had more than one, I believe they would lie and kill what would be considered an infant if there were any way to do it.

But it is medically necessary to do an ultrasound before they do an abortion. Thats the point.

But not a trans-vaginal ultrasound, which is what all the brew haha is about.

But it is. It is more accurate as far as to tell the date of delivery, which a regular ultrasound does not. It tells the date of conception, which the regular ultrasound does not. It tells if there are other issues that a regular ultrasound does not. They told me with my last daughter she was due on july 7th. She was born at 37.5 weeks on June 6th, with an amended due date of june 23rd, due to the trans vaginal ultrasound. It was able to be spot on with many things that the other ones do not. That was a 2 week difference, which can mean the difference between viable and non viable fetus.

I am not an expert by any means, but a woman getting an abortion is not concerned about the date of delivery. And while I don't know the law concerning how far into a term an abortion is legal, I am pretty sure that the cut off is a lot earlier than any possible date of viability.

They are concerned with the date of delivery because of the date the baby stops becoming merely a fetus, and becomes a living being, making it murder after that point. That is why the due date is so important. They have to have an accurate stop date, or if it is later than whenever the state dictates it is not allowed, it becomes illegal for the procedure to be done. THAT is why it is so important. But, how many babies have you had? I had one that no one even knew I was pregnant. Was able to wear jeans all the way through. I had another that I was so big I looked full term at 6 months. That is another reason for the dates. And the last date to do it changes state to state, with washington, last time I checked, allowing it all the way into the third trimester WAY after the date of viability. There are other states that have allowed later abortions for varying reasons. The point is the same. There are many different things that dont show up on a regular ultrasound that are found with the trans vag. one. I think it is medically necessary in order to make sure everything is being done legally, and with the knowledge that they KNOW everyone is going to be safe. There are ectopic pregancies, outside of the womb pregnancies, and other bad things that can happen that would kill the mother on the table if they didnt know what was going inside of the woman.

I wonder how many women are objecting to this that have had an actual abortion? From the people around here that have had them that I know, they say its necessary, and had no problem getting one when they went in there.

And after the recent Meta wars I don't think I wanna email any viners through NV or otherwise :-)

Well Pat,

Speaking strictly for myself, several of my friends on the Vine do not hesitate to contact me about articles they've seeded. You may feel free to do the same.